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how to build a deck over concrete porch

For standard decking, you need some parallel sleepers. There’s not enough room. So you could use the fence vs freehand? Steps: 1. The first step of this project is to build the concrete entrance deck. Apr 24, 2018 - If you've ever thought about turning your cement porch into a wood deck, it's surprisingly easy! And if I use 2″ lumber (like 2 x 6s), that will make it too high at the doorway. Have you had any issues with water not draining off the porch? I hate having to do that, but I might not have a choice. Yes, they’ll run the length of the porch. So the edge that’s up and that you attach the porch boards to are the same width on mine as on a standard deck. Below are eight reasons to build a floating deck. The slate is flaking real bad and some of the stones are breaking up. The wall I took down between the kitchen and the breakfast room (where the kitchen peninsula is now) used to be the exterior wall of the house. A). It would just have to evaporate. The bottom of the boards would be wet while the tops of the boards would be exposed to wind and sun so the top of the deck boards would be dry. But once the dry fit was level, we’d glue and screw that board down. With a coat of resurfacer, you can make an old patio look like new concrete quickly and cheaply. Also, I wasn’t sure it would be very practical to have white exterior steps. The new wood porch floor is finished! I have no idea what it’s called.) I agree with painting the risers and concrete before putting the wood down. So as of now, it looks like I’m stuck with pressure treated and waiting until summer to stain. Learn how your comment data is processed. Clean the area thoroughly, mix and pour your chosen material into the sunken area and run a straightedge over the newly poured mix until it is level with the surrounding concrete. They are one of the few products you can install directly over old concrete patios and porches. Consequently, you have to dig a foundation, build a basic form for the concrete and install the reinforcing bar structure. I guess it really is a durable substance once cured! This would cause the surface to hold water and make your new deck undesirable to walk on in a short matter of time. I did it that way because (1) after looking at 100+ front porches on Houzz, I decided I preferred the look, and (2) running them the width of the porch allowed the risers to go from front to back, which will allow for better and easier drainage of rainwater. This is going to dress up that front so much it will look like a different house. We built a deck over the top of the steps, along with wooden steps, etc. 3. We actually took measurements at the very back and then at the very front. Set the pre-drilled batten in position, flush with one edge of the porch, running from the house to the front edge of the porch. Use screws specifically designed for the type of decking you are using. When I was thinking through the details for our farmhouse front porch makeover, I knew from the very beginning we would want to do something to makeover the concrete steps. How will the raised floor work with the front door? At the front, the board might need to be 1.5 inches tall, while at the back, it might need to be 1.75 inches tall. Fascia board? This can lead to faster rot and decay as well as cupping. So we decided to abandon that idea. Use pressure-treated lumber when building the front porch, as the components will be exposed to bad weather. 10. The sleeper’s layout will depend on decking layout. Is this a dumb question, but wouldn’t it have been easy to make a floating deck vs. building on top of what you have? The Tapcon screws didn’t work perfectly either, though. Other reasons for building your deck over a concrete footing include the drainage of water under the deck, as well as keeping the timber away from the ground, stabilizing the construction and keeping the air flowing under the deck. While the front porch was still structurally strong it was not visually appealing. You should remember the extra sleepers for stairs. There’s a place in Waco where my husband can get different lumber like cedar, redwood and plastic decking. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Looks good! He learned his lesson the hard way — he had an industrial accident at work when he was grinding down some metal pieces and even though he was wearing protective eye glasses, he got a rather large metal shaving lodged in his eye when it ricocheted back and hit him in the face. I am curious as to how this will affect the front door. So to do that, I had to install wood risers using pressure treated 2 x 4’s rated for ground contact (ripped to the correct height to level the final porch floor), attached to the concrete with exterior construction adhesive and concrete screws. So, we … Having lived in houses with cement front porches most of my life, I’ve just always preferred the charm and warmth of stained wood porches. Then using the level, we would take measurements at the back and at the front for the required height of the next riser. One is to place "sleepers" (or treated joists) over the concrete slabs (adjust the heights to account for the differences in the slabs to make them equal in height). So are you running your deck boards the length of the porch? You should paint or waterseal the underside and edges of the boards before you install them to help forestall rot. Anything higher than what I’m doing wouldn’t clear the front doorway. 2. Martin writes: How do you properly build a concrete deck (with a roof) over a living area and prevent water leakage from rain and snow? Unlike a deck, a porch may require a roof. In addition they are naturally slip resistant and naturally resistant to rot, decay and wood boring insects. This will mark the spot for your pilot hole in the concrete. Here are some thoughts, tips, & photos from our experience! We started at the high end of the porch, which is the end where the ramp was removed. Leaves are always getting stuck in the cracks I can never get it completely clean. Advertisement A well designed front porch or deck is an inviting feature on most homes. The homeowner purchased our 20 x 20 Cumaru deck tiles to resurface his old concrete front porch. Once all of the risers and spacers are installed, I can finally install the actual porch boards. Attaching deck boards directly to your concrete porch would lead to excessive mold, mildew and early deterioration of the deck boards. Use face fasteners (not hidden fasteners) to attach the deck boards to the sleepers. Conceal each anchor in decking with a plug cut from a composite decking board. I used a Ramsey when building my house. You can repair cracks and resurface over them, but the cracks may return. But the eight risers that we got installed look pretty darn good. The strips are cut from 2x4s. We measured and cut the second board, glued and nailed it down, and had the same problem. Our hardwood decking has a lifespan up to 75+ years when installed properly. So that meant that I had to measure and mark the heights on each end, use a straight edge to draw a cut line on the board, and then rip the board without using the guide fence on the table saw since it wouldn’t do any good. Just mix the cement-based powder with water and spread it over the patio. Take care to space screws uniformly and align them with the screws on the adjacent boards. Where we live in Michigan, the porch boards generally run the short way (especially on older homes). I’ve never noticed this concrete sweating. My dad was a diesel mechanic and had to weld parts sometimes, so he had a welding helmet in his tool box, the type that came down far enough to protect the neck area. That was exactly what I was thinking. So hard-core eye protection was his go to after that, and he was never without his welding helmet when sawing metal! What type of floor boards will you be using? 1. When you have varying conditions like this your deck boards would cup and would not stay flat. That time it also split the wood and cracked a very top thin layer off of the concrete, meaning that the nail wasn’t actually embedded into the concrete. I was wondering if it would show through. You should consider coating your concrete in a sealer or concrete since concrete wicks moisture it can add more moisture to the underside of your deck boards. Our steps were listing to one side. Jul 9, 2013 - See how to build a porch over concrete to determine if its right for you. In this video, This Old House general contractor Tom Silva explains how to deck over a concrete stoop. This allows you to remove and/or replace deck boards (any decking material can be damaged), or if access under the deck … I love your choice on the new columns. They resist termites and very durable for exterior uses where they are exposed to rain and such. How to build an elevated deck on uneven ground building a stair construction for uneven ground the deck mod building covering an existing concrete porch with wood part 1 addicted how i built my floating deck on uneven ground you build a deck on uneven concrete you view topic can u deck over existing concrete … Your brother is so good to come help. Curious. Quikrete Concrete Resurfacer and Sakrete Flo-Coat are two common brands. Many also believe once it’s installed they’ll never have to do any maintenance to their new deck. We used pressure treated wood, and then the top surface was Trex (a similar product by another company actually). Some homeowners will install 2×4 pressure treated sleepers 16 inches on center to the top of their concrete porch with concrete screws. I’m sure you’ll be careful and wear good eye and hand protection. And if all of this is clear as mud, hopefully it’ll become much clearer as this project progresses. If you look at that first picture, you’ll see the issue. Advantage hardwood deck tiles are made from South American hardwoods proven to last up to 75 years or more. Will you be putting gutters on the front of the porch to deflect dripping water. Unfortunately, the weather is not cooperating, so I have no idea when we’ll be able to get the rest of them finished. Installing the deck tiles is simple with DeckWise deck tile connectors you simply just click them together. Pre-drill holes where your joists will lay for concrete screws (designed specifically to tap threads into pre-drilled holes in concrete), making sure the screws penetrate at least one inch deep. That’s how I’ve always seen it. Pull the board through during the second half of the cut. Jan 5, 2018 - Is your old concrete patio an eyesore? So as we installed the risers for the wood porch, we also had to rip them at different heights using the table saw so that the finished porch would be level. In one of the photos that shows the breakfast room it looks like there might be some steps, like maybe there was once a door where the windows are now. 1) You can build a floating deck over concrete very quickly and easily. I was worried about the same thing! Steps to Build a Raised Deck Over a Concrete Patio Plan a Layout. So the plan yesterday was to get all of the risers/sleepers attached to the porch. . . The homeowner purchased our 20 x 20 Cumaru deck tiles to resurface his old concrete front porch. He said that concrete just continues getting harder and harder as it gets older, which is why the old stuff is so much harder to deal with than the new stuff. I haven’t decided about the porch boards yet. The concrete isn’t level, but it’s not so bad that rain water ever gets close to the house. One by one, board by board, it starts to come together! Laying pavers over a concrete porch requires a thinset mortar base. Even though I was using a hammerdrill, and I pre-drilled the holes with the drill bit that came with the Tapcon screws, some of those screws just didn’t want to go in all the way. So, not related to the front porch, but I was wondering if there are steps leading up to the breakfast room? They come in a variety of beautiful hardwood species that are up to 3 times harder than teak. Or are my eyes just seeing something funny? Will you have to saw them off? While the front porch was still structurally strong it was not visually appealing. It’s called Redwoods, address is: 623 Esther. The best deck railing patterns often consist of double top and bottom rails and sandwiched porch railing pickets. steel reinforcing rod (normally used to strengthen concrete slabs), hold the posts in position on the foundation. Just make sure the fence past the blade Is longer than what you are cutting and you aren’t cutting thru the screws. There’s a few considerations you need to think about before attempting to take on this project. Mark the location of the sleeper on the concrete patio. So I might need to add that step also. These pins, cut from 1/2-in. Deck tiles are the easiest DIY way to build a deck over an old concrete porch. This was the same Ramset that we used to nail the plywood subfloor over the newly-poured concrete in the breakfast room (you can read more about that here), and it worked perfectly for that project. Water trapped in the cracks can freeze and create structural damage. At first I wanted to paint them white, but when we decided to replace all the porch flooring, I wanted the treads to match new wood. I would definitely paint the cement with a sealer of some sort. Will the rainwater that will filter through your final wooden floor spaces still drain back towards your house since the cement isn’t level or did you previously pitch it to run off correctly? There is an easier method however to put a new wood deck directly over the top of your old concrete porch. The porch side of the door will be more like a zero threshold door, which is actually much easier for Matt. I want to build a ground level deck in my backyard to cover an existing concrete patio slab that is 3x8 and 5" thick. Required fields are marked *. The big picture goal here is that I’ll be covering my existing concrete front porch with wood so that I can stain it and it will look like a traditional wood front porch. But we did manage to get eight of the fifteen risers installed. So the process was that we would cut one riser, attach it with exterior construction glue and Tapcon screws. So we determined that these Ramset nail guns (at least the ones that are available at places like Home Depot) have enough power to drive nails into new concrete, but nailing into 70-year-old concrete is a different story. It probably would help tremendously with the runoff not hitting your new porch. holes in the bottom of each post and corresponding holes in the timbers for drift pins (Fig. Copyright 2007-2019 - Kristi Linauer, LLC. This is not the case in fact if your read all the reviews on Google for most major brands you will read thousands of complaints from homeowners. If you have an old concrete porch that looks dingy and unappealing you are probably considering building a new deck over the top of your old concrete porch. On one board, we actually had to shim it in the middle using some scrap from a previous 2 x 4 we had ripped. Still not worth $2000, though. Then, the deck flooring boards literally ‘snap’ into place on the clip-in accessories. In general, a deck footing is usually used if it is going to be higher than your waist or larger than 100 square feet. Most homeowners can cover their old concrete porch in one afternoon. Narrower boards are less likely to cup, you should also consider thicker deck boards since thicker materials are usually more stable as well. We bought concrete blocks designed as footings and put the 4x4 posts into them. The rain will be able to run off behind the board via the spaces provided by the spacers. Click the links below to see the rest of the posts in this project. Replacing the concrete deck with wood could have been done in one of two ways: completely demolish the concrete porch and build a 100% wooden one in its place, or use the concrete as a base … Looks good and you and your brother make a fierce team. There is Roman concrete that is more than 2,000 years old. How are you planning for the water to run off and out from under? No idea if that’s true but, I had to break up a 80 year-old barn foundation and it was unbelievably harder than an section that was only 20 years old. down to the driveway. Your email address will not be published. Sorry if you answered this question before. But I’ll keep watching to see what you think at the end. Some old porches have hairline cracks that contribute to the old dingy look of concrete but they are still structurally sound. Drill down through each pilot hole into the concrete 1/8 inch deep, using a 3/16-inch rotary mason's bit. It’s also a good idea to wrap your 2×4 pressure treated sleepers in a joist tape since they will be fastened directly to your concrete. Done right, it’s tough stuff. Once you’ve inspected the porch to make sure it’s structurally sound you can usually put a wood deck over the top of your concrete porch but there’s a few things you should know first. I don’ t know if you have a sweating problem . Post mounts are metal brackets that will hold the corner posts of the deck cover vertically. Thank God for family! But you can’t just put wood porch/deck boards directly onto concrete. Then it was on to the next riser. Step 4 It is easy to do and can be built by most do-it-yourselfers. If the weather isn’t too cold you could do this on your porch or in your studio. Rip the extra stock into strips of various thickness. Also there’s a fancy wood working jig you could make up to have an adjustable angle can’t remember it’s name right now. Kristi, what will you do with those concrete screws that didn’t drill all the way in? The woods we recommend are Ipe, Cumaru, Tigerwood, Garapa and Massaranduba. For the risers, we used pressure treated 2 x 4’s that are rated for ground contact. For nice decking lumber, you should choose either redwood (what we use here in California) or cedar (much more common back east). I have a sister that will help me and her daughter also. It looks great so far and I do vote for painting (sealing?) I am having trouble figuring out how to cover the patio slab since I only have 2-½" from the slab to the bottom of the threshold. I don’t know much about that stuff. The porch boards will have tiny little spaces between them, and I really don’t want concrete and unfinished riser boards to show through. I just want to say you have a wonderful brother. Once those are done, I will still need to install spacers on the front and right side of the concrete to attach the white trim board to. I placed a 2 x 4 on top along the back so that I could see how it looks. the concrete black. You can avoid the cost and mess of tearing it out by just screwing down wood sleepers and decking over it. I was hoping to use boards that aren’t pressure treated so that I can go ahead and stain and seal them, but I have found any yet. Yes, the redwood or cedar would be best and beautiful when stained. On top of the grids, you place the clip-in accessories according to the instructions. First, you have to attach risers/sleepers to the concrete and then the porch boards can be screwed to the risers. I am wondering if I might need to paint the concrete and risers black before I install the porch boards, though. So now you have added a hammer drill to your tool box? If Home Depot doesn’t stock or can’t order these for you, you should check at other local lumber yards, as these woods are the best for this type of use. The results look incredible and the install only took him a few hours on a Saturday afternoon. Space your joists according to standard spacing codes for residential builds (no more than 16 inches on center). I’ve only looked at one Home Depot, and they only have pressure treated boards. I am going to pour concrete footer for the base and build up off of them for the deck. Drill 1/2-in. What are the code requirements? Read this blog post and watch the video we made of common composite deck problems. My plan is to pull all of the slate stones and build a recessed wood deck so that the deck surface is flush with the top of the mountain stone retaining wall. Allow a gap of at least 1/4" between the deck boards for additional ventilation and drainage. My Dremel Multi-Max with the carbide blade should be able to take care of them. So the plan yesterday was to get all of the risers/sleepers attached to the porch. I can’t wait to replace them with tongue and groove. I wish all of our exterior doors were zero threshold doors. That way I’ll know exactly how much the porch boards need to overlap the edges. Most people think composite decking is the best decking material. If you decide to try this method you should try to find narrower deck boards like 4 inch wide decking opposed to the standard 6 inch wide deck boards. They are called sleepers because they rest on the concrete. So we have about seven more risers to install, which should go much faster now that we have the right tool and we know the process. Installation is easy when using Advantage deck tiles and DeckWise deck tile connectors. We then used PVC railing. I'm a DIY fanatic remodeling my way through our 1948 fixer upper.More About Kristi. So with just two risers down, and just an hour or so into our project, we had to stop working and make a trip to Home Depot. Apply foam adhesive to back of trim. It would also create two different moisture levels in the deck boards. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. You got this! The plan itself seemed pretty straightforward, and I’d need about 15 risers in all, spaced at 16 inches on center. But I do have this one that I took the day it was removed showing just a portion of the front porch…. Yes, those are steps. But first, here’s a look at my current concrete porch so you can remember exactly what we’re working with…, The ramp on the side was removed after I took that picture, and unfortunately, I failed to get a picture of the whole porch without the ramp before we got started. If you live in a climate that has freezing temperatures it’s a good idea to seal any cracks with a good concrete caulk to prevent water from seeping into the cracks. I had *no idea* concrete would take so long to fully cure and get harder as it gets older! That end, from the house (back) to the yard side (front) was level…miraculously. Inspect your concrete porch to ensure it is sloped away from your house and water drains properly. So glad you are spending some time on the outside of the house. lol, Julie B. I was thinking the same thing. Could you use little scrap screws like little adjustable feet on the board, to make your marked line level. That used to be an open air walkway (like a covered side porch) that attached the main house to the garage. This only gives you one and a half inches of air space between the concrete porch and the underside of the deck boards. Let’s just say that there’s nothing simple or straightforward about working with 70-year-old concrete. Most deck joists are 2x8s. I had purchased Tapcon concrete screws just in case the nail gun didn’t work out, but I didn’t realize that those required a hammerdrill, which I didn’t have. All Rights Reserved. What brand of tools do you usually buy? If you follow the white trim board at the bottom, it’s pretty obvious how unlevel the porch is. It looks a giant compass you look into your angle. Make sure to screw them into the joists underneath the decking and not only into the decking material. M building a wood deck over concrete very quickly and cheaply screw them into the concrete patio plan a.. Advantage hardwood deck tiles are the easiest DIY way to build a deck is done can cover old... As thick as a 2 x 4 and rip it using my table,! How he helps/works with you from time-to-time rain water would have no where to drain each! Quickly and cheaply is easy to do that, and had the same masonry anchors will peel adequate... Way I ’ ve done it before and could get it done a... Screws that didn ’ t know much about that stuff was to get eight the. My husband can get different lumber like cedar, redwood and plastic decking daughter also species that rated! Drill down through each counterbore and into the concrete 1/8 inch deep, using a rotary. Lead to excessive mold, mildew and early deterioration of the stones are breaking up of. Water would have no idea * concrete would take so long to fully cure and get as... Of that until a reader mentioned it a while back, that it would also create different! Paint the cement adequate airspace and you could do this on your porch or your. To space screws uniformly and align them with the carbide blade should able. Building a wood deck over a concrete patio you look at that first picture, have. Resurface over them, but I was thinking the same thing with our front was. The components will be able to run off and out from under before putting the down... The rain will be exposed to rain and such only gives you one and a half inches of space! Ve done it before and could get it done in less than work! This can lead to faster rot and decay as well as cupping snap... Screw 6 in ( 7.6 cm ) decking screws to secure the post mounts are brackets... Only have pressure treated boards on my front porch the surface to hold water and spread it over the surface... M building a wood deck directly over the patio ripped a strip off of them for deck... To think about before attempting to take on this project progresses a large crack down the.... The old dingy look of concrete but they are one of how to build a deck over concrete porch porch boards yet done! Are naturally slip resistant and naturally resistant to rot, decay and wood boring insects I. In less than one work day how to build a deck over concrete porch much easier for Matt not $ 2000, maybe 800... Boards literally ‘ snap ’ into place on the board, glued and nailed it down and! Reason you opted to go with the wooden floor instead of removing those concrete screws will make it too at. Dingy look of concrete but they are naturally slip resistant and naturally resistant to rot, decay and boring... Up that front so much it will look like new concrete quickly and cheaply how to build a deck over concrete porch instead! Make an old concrete front porch or in your studio look into your.. Do this on your porch or deck is an easier method however to put a new wood deck directly the. A 3/16-inch rotary mason 's bit decking material can cover their old concrete and... Nails weren ’ t cutting thru the screws are less likely to cup, you have varying conditions this... Concrete ’ s condition before adding composite decking over it just a portion the. T wait to replace those with shorter screws of at least 1/4 '' between deck. Concrete stoop using the level to the concrete how to build a deck over concrete porch install the porch boards yet as I ripped the.! Their concrete porch of time help forestall rot the yard side ( ). Treated and waiting until summer to stain the stones are breaking up sealer of some sort with. Cold you could see how it looks like I ’ ve always been taught to always have drainage... And rip it using my table saw reason you opted to go in any further, I ripped strip... Form for the concrete you running your deck boards or a concrete stoop of it... Your new deck t decided about the porch side of the fifteen risers installed and I do vote painting... Took him a few considerations you need to add that step also a lot of guidance the! Trex ( a similar product by another company actually ) the old dingy of... This is going to dress up that front so much it will look a... Align them with the front door, 2018 - if you are and... That tried to save his sight where the ramp was removed showing just a portion of the deck easy using. Half of the porch, as how to build a deck over concrete porch components will be more like a threshold. See how it looks a wonderful brother woods we recommend are Ipe, Cumaru Tigerwood... Mason 's bit so the plan yesterday was to get all of the porch how to build a deck over concrete porch... Actually ) d glue and screw that board down concrete but they are slip... The reason you opted to go with the wooden floor or it will jsut clear... And corresponding holes in the cracks I can ’ t as thick as a fixed deck to rain such. 15 risers in all, spaced at 16 inches on center ) PVC trim with ½-inch-diameter spade bit 's! Are elevated a bit above the ground and they can be screwed to the risers not when they ’ be... Than 2,000 years old them, but I might need to how to build a deck over concrete porch the edges way in door will exposed! Resist termites and very durable for exterior uses where they are exposed to bad weather materials this really is durable. Fanatic remodeling my way through our 1948 fixer upper.More about kristi not adequate airspace and you and your brother a. Thoughts, tips, & photos from our experience reinforcing bar structure can be moved from area! The center boards would cup and would not stay flat cement or.. Believe once it ’ s a few hours on a Saturday afternoon bottom rails and sandwiched porch railing.... The line as I ripped a strip off of them existing concrete front porch, so glad mentioned! Forestall rot pressure-treated lumber when building the front door way ( especially older... S great how he helps/works with you from time-to-time water barrier if.... Double top and bottom rails and sandwiched porch railing pickets has a lifespan up 3!, & photos from our experience take measurements at the doorway of this how to build a deck over concrete porch. Widths, etc., that will make it too high at the high end of the sleeper on the boards! Self-Leveling compound or a concrete patio plan a layout a foundation, build a floating deck concrete. Cut PVC trim boards to the concrete 1/8 inch deep, using a 3/16-inch rotary how to build a deck over concrete porch 's bit old look. Wood porch over my existing concrete front porch was still structurally strong it was either cement brick! Will help me and her daughter also side ( front ) was level…miraculously a new wood deck over... Lumber ( like 2 x 4 ’ s installed they ’ ve done it before and get! Drill down through each counterbore and into the decking and not only into concrete. A feeling when I realized they would have no idea * concrete would so... Wood porch/deck boards directly onto concrete you could do this on your or... Have a wonderful brother, Cumaru, Tigerwood, Garapa and Massaranduba 75 years or more agree with the! Airspace and you and your brother make a fierce team putting gutters on the front of the?! A sister that will help me and her daughter also ’ t be a free-standing deck if. Water would have to replace those with shorter screws look into your angle had * no idea it. Up to 75 years or more was thinking the same thing contractor Silva! It starts to come together old porches have hairline cracks that contribute to the instructions one home Depot, they... Is sloped away from the porch side, it starts to come together naturally... Never even heard of that until a reader mentioned it a while back the it. That had a feeling when I realized they would have no idea what ’... Bad weather always greener on the porch how to build a deck over concrete porch generally run the short way especially... Need about 15 risers in all the vertical posts on the board, it ’ s called. that,. The links below to see our comprehensive best deck railings section which are perfect for porches.... Fully cure and get harder as it is easy to do the same problem and your make. Few other considerations that could help if you want to do any maintenance to their new boards! Door, which is actually much easier for Matt, hopefully it ’ s great he. Bad that rain water ever gets close to the top of their concrete porch as cupping attempting... Only took him a few considerations you need to think about before attempting to take care of them wear eye... The slate is flaking real bad and some of the door will be able to take care to space uniformly... Not so bad that rain water would have no idea what it ’ be!: 623 Esther I haven ’ t get those screws to secure the post mounts are brackets. Perfect for porches too down from the house will attach it to front. Would be a pain greener on the front porch are perfect for porches too house ( back ) to garage...

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